Sophia Frentz

[00:00:21] Hi, and welcome back to Things of Interest. I’m Sophia Frentz,

Serena Chen

[00:00:39] and I’m Serena Chen.

Sophia Frentz

[00:00:42] And this week, well, this episode, this return to format we’re going to be talking about your brain on pandemic. As you might’ve guessed, we’ve had a bit of a hiatus. That’s because. Serena my wonderful, esteemed intelligent co-host moved across the world right as a pandemic started. She didn’t plan this. Unplanned.

Serena Chen

[00:01:06] I didn’t. Yep. Confirmed. Confirmed. You are correct.

Sophia Frentz

[00:01:11] But it meant that we, the two of us, have definitely had a heck of a year, as I’m sure everyone has. And we thought a really nice way to kind of get back into it would be to talk about how all of our brains are broken now, and no one remembers how to interact.

[00:01:28]so before we kicked off, Serena was talking, we were both commiserating over the fact that when giving a talk quote unquote, publicly. So over video calls now, unless you are blessed and live in New Zealand, it feels so weird.

[00:01:43] So I’ve had the privilege of giving a few talks in my workplace and being on panels this year, I also teach and so I give feedback to students through zoom currently, and it feels like a sense of mine is missing. Like I’ve lost, I can’t feel a chunk of the room. And I didn’t realize really how heavily I relied on like, the sense of what the room is doing in order to like, feel confident that I’m giving a good talk or that what I’m saying is useful or relevant.

[00:02:10] How does it, how has it felt to you, serena?

Serena Chen

[00:02:12] Yeah, exactly that. Like, even for not just talks, but back and forth conversations as well. I just never realized how much I relied on body language. Like I never thought of myself as someone who was versed in body language? I just thought, Oh I’m just, you know, your standard nerd who tries to fumble her way through conversation, but no, actually body language is so, so important and conveys so much information.

[00:02:43] I never noticed how much I relied on posture changes. Like when someone leans forward, leans back, where people are looking in the room like if they, where their body is turned, like this is all stuff that I never noticed I was looking for subconsciously.

[00:03:02] And now it just means that when I’m giving a talk, it means that I’m panicking. Just low-key panicking in the background. Like, Oh my God, no, one’s there. Everyone hates this. And when I’m having a conversation, usually what happens in, you know, IRL, is that you kind of can feel when someone in the room is ready to take over the speaking role, right?

[00:03:28] And so that kind of tells you, okay, it’s time to stop speaking. Whereas over video call, you don’t get the same signals, and so what ends up happening is that I just trail off awkwardly. And then I forget my original point and it’s, it’s just super awkward and super weird. And it’s what I’m doing right now.

[00:03:51] Although, I mean, we had this over video chat all the time.

Sophia Frentz

[00:03:54] We turned our videos on to try and make this as easy as possible.

[00:03:58] We normally will, will record without video, but I figured we need every help we can get right now, yeah, I mean, I’m like, as someone who is autistic, I don’t think been like, Oh, when a person, has more tension in their face, they’re paying more attention to you.

[00:04:13] Like, but I definitely had the rules in my head of how to like, give a good talk and how to read a room and make sure people are listening and responding to me. And now when I give talks, it just, I, I am terrified that everyone’s just left the call and I haven’t noticed.

Serena Chen

[00:04:28] Yeah. Yeah, (crosstalk) what’s worse is that like because everyone’s working from home, everyone’s got like all of these distractions, like so many people are with their babies that need constant attention, and frankly is more important than whatever call, you know, we’re talking about on the call.

[00:04:48] So like, in the middle of a call, you will just see people leave their desks and walk away while you’re still talking. And it’s like, I know that there is a good reason for that. Like, people wouldn’t just do that, cause people are very polite, in fact too polite sometimes. And I know that like there’s, probably something more urgent, but gosh, it, it also, I don’t know, it just, it just really hits you. It, it like makes you feel like, oh crap, am I, am I not? Am I not being interesting enough right now?

Sophia Frentz

[00:05:26] What’s the biggest change you’ve noticed over this year? Like how your brain works or how you’re interacting with people.

Serena Chen

[00:05:33] I thought I would miss social interaction enough that I would be just constantly calling friends and talking to friends.

[00:05:46] What ended up happening, the reality was that I definitely missed everyone and I missed the social interaction, but I ended up like, not calling friends and not reaching out to people. And when I did reach out to people, my like frizzled brain would just forget. This is like a whole different thing as well, different to the social interaction part, which is, you know, people keep talking about how time doesn’t exist this year and everything’s melded together.

[00:06:17] But quite seriously, like I have set, I have four alarms every day on my phone. One to wake me up, one to tell me to eat something at lunchtime, one to tell me to eat something at dinner time, and one to tell me to turn off the screens and go to sleep. Because, for a while I didn’t have those alarms and literally like just time did not exist.

[00:06:42] Like I felt like I was back at university in honour’s year when like time also didn’t exist, except without like a big thing that I was working on. Like I just, I had no overarching goal. And just in this like weird kind of milkshake slurry.

Sophia Frentz

[00:07:04] Yeah. I think, I mean the time not existing thing is absolutely a stress brain thing. It’s a little bit like if you don’t have new things, you experience on a regular basis, your brain is like, Oh, this is all one day.

Serena Chen

[00:07:18] Yeah.

Sophia Frentz

[00:07:19] Don’t know what to tell you, they were all the same day.

Serena Chen

[00:07:22] Yeah.

[00:07:24] As well as just like, because we’re so much in a state of like fear and concern about the world, particularly near the beginning of the pandemic, it was very much like you only form the important memories. And so, during that time you would have had like very good knowledge of numbers of cases.

[00:07:44] Oh yeah.

Sophia Frentz

[00:07:44] Not so much good knowledge about when you last called a friend.

Serena Chen

[00:07:47] Yeah.

Sophia Frentz

[00:07:48] Yeah.

Serena Chen

[00:07:49] I don’t know if, if you did this as well, but like, I remember the first few days of the pandemic when it got really bad and it was like, Oh, like lockdown’s are coming, that kind of thing. And this was before, like we knew how to go to the supermarket in a pandemic.

Sophia Frentz

[00:08:08] Yup.

Serena Chen

[00:08:09] And this is before we had a better idea of relative risk as well. Like we didn’t know what things were. High-risk what things were low risk. This is, this is way before there was even talk of like aerosol transmission rates, way before talk of ventilation.

[00:08:24] And I remember planning to go to the grocery store and thinking, I don’t know when, or like which grocery store or like what to do and I’m in a foreign country as well, like, I have no idea where anything is. And just sitting down at my little note pad writing down the like past week of case numbers, the trajectory and trying to extrapolate the trajectory to see like how long do I have before I really should not go outside anymore?

[00:08:53] And shit, that was stressful. Fuck. Gosh, it, it seems surreal thinking back to that time now,

Sophia Frentz

[00:08:59] Yeah. You were also like; you had a very bad flu when you first arrived in Germany.

Serena Chen

[00:09:04] Oh my gosh. That was also bad.

Sophia Frentz

[00:09:05] It definitely didn’t help.

Serena Chen

[00:09:07] No, it’s like, well you know when you travel and you get sick and that’s totally normal and you’re just like, Oh, well, it’s just going to suck for a bit.

[00:09:15] But during a pandemic, you’re like, am I going to die?

Sophia Frentz

[00:09:19] Yeah, I think, I mean, I certainly have a lot of friends who have various disabilities, some of which compromise their lungs, some of which compromise their immune systems and they still get to dance that dance right now.

[00:09:31] And as well, like I think the big country that’s fucking up real bad right now, let’s not talk about America, (laughter) is actually the UK,

Serena Chen

[00:09:39] Yeah

Sophia Frentz

[00:09:40] I’m just pretending they don’t exist. They’re living their best young adult dystopian novel life. And they can just keep doing that and, okay, I’m just, I can’t bring myself to talk about them on the show yet.

[00:09:52] But the UK, like their curve is basically a straight line right now. And I think for a lot of people who listen, and a lot of people, I think we both know will have family and friends in the UK and that is so anxiety inducing.

Serena Chen

[00:10:07] Yeah.

Sophia Frentz

[00:10:08] Yeah.

Serena Chen

[00:10:10] Quite a few people. I know who usually live in the UK, they went home for Christmas to New Zealand. And this was like right before the, right now it’s really bad.

[00:10:21] And, I don’t know, if I were them. I’d be thinking like, do I want to go back? Probably not.

Sophia Frentz

[00:10:28] Right?

Serena Chen

[00:10:29] Yeah,

Sophia Frentz

[00:10:30] I, yeah, it’s very strange living in Australia and having the, both the luxury of like, you know, we’ve got a few cases right now. We’ve got a handful of cases happening, but Victoria had 60 days without local transmission.

[00:10:49] You know? New South Wales had 40 days without any community transmission. We went through like that really harsh lockdown and it paid off for us. And so, I talk to like friends and colleagues and they’re like, Oh, so are you going to go home for Christmas? Are you planning on going home for the break? And it’s like, no.

Serena Chen

[00:11:05] No.

Sophia Frentz

[00:11:07] Who are you where you’re like, Oh, let’s put my like elderly family at risk. Like airports are hotbeds of infection, right, like you made that comment before very offhanded, right? Like about how you just kind of get sick when you travel and that’s because airports, just like they’re mostly disease. (laughter)

[00:11:22] They’re disease and there are a few planes that go in there, like that’s, that’s how you get sick buds. And usually when I travel, I just kind of lump it. I’m like, okay, like I’ll probably get a cold or something on this flight. Or like, you know, might even if I’m really unlucky get gastro, that just happens when you’re traveling.

[00:11:42] But when it’s something that like, just kills a bunch of people over 60, has these really severe, like long-term implications. I’m like, I’m not going anywhere near an airport,

Serena Chen

[00:11:51] Yeah, and it’s like especially if you’ve been through a hard lockdown, it’s like, we worked so hard to get here. I am not fucking that up. Okay. So, from, from an overseas perspective, it is, I, I don’t know how to put into words how frustrating it is that we didn’t, like the entire European block, just say, hey everyone, look. It is going to suck for, I dunno, six to eight weeks. It’s going to suck a lot.

[00:12:33] We will pay you to do what the New Zealand government does, we will pay you to not fire people. We will pay you to stay home. We will pay you to do nothing. Stay home six to eight weeks. It’s going to suck. We all hate it, but we’re going to do it. And then we would have been out of this mess in like fucking June, like I just.

Sophia Frentz

[00:12:54] Well and you know fair, fair props to like the New Zealand government and the various state governments in Australia, the federal government’s done fucking nothing. But like, this is what places like Thailand and Vietnam have done. This is like, Mongolia, I think’s had no cases of community transmission despite being right next door to Wuhan because they saw that coming and they were like, you know what?

[00:13:16] We’re going to close our borders.

Serena Chen

[00:13:19] We’re going to say no.

Sophia Frentz

[00:13:21] I think that’s something we’ve seen a lot of in this pandemic. I mean, we see it all the time and we talk about it on this podcast all the time, but like this like Western exceptionalism idea that like, Oh, if a white country does it, like where else could possibly have done it.

[00:13:36] And it’s like, Hmm, like. I know one of Vietnam or Thailand, and I apologize for not knowing specifically which one, the government delivered food to people’s houses and they were just like, stay at home for four weeks. You don’t even have to leave to get food. Everyone is getting food delivered, stay at home.

Serena Chen

[00:13:50] Yeah.

[00:13:51] That’s exactly what happened in Wuhan as well. They just got food. I remember video calling my uncle, my uncle’s family who lives in Wuhan and this would have been maybe like a month into their lockdown. This would have been in February, early February. Back in the day.

[00:14:11] And we were like, Oh, how are you doing? Like, how’s it going? And my auntie’s like, Oh, you know, just making food. She was making dumplings and bao. And so, she was just like, ah, well, we got nothing else to do, except make food and like read. And and we were like, what? And she’s like, yeah, you know, get food delivered. My uncle’s in the background, like running a lap around the apartment, just like getting some exercise.

[00:14:35] I don’t, like, I don’t mean to paint this as like they had a good time. It was not a good time. But yeah, everyone just kind of understood that this was what had to happen to control the virus.

[00:14:50] Something that also has baffled me, especially looking at the communications of the governments in the European countries, specifically the UK because Sweden. Oh my God.

Sophia Frentz

[00:15:02] Can we talk about Sweden?

Serena Chen

[00:15:04] We’ll get to Sweden. Sweden was like fucking next level. Oh my goodness.

[00:15:10] No, I was thinking more like Germany, UK. UK cause I, I speak English and I don’t speak a lot of other languages, but what has baffled me is the wanting to not cause a panic, and having that be the main goal of every single public health communication. No matter what is happening, they’re like, okay, so look, the stuff has happened, but please do not panic.

[00:15:39] And I mean, like, I understand that people shouldn’t panic. It, it does no one any good to panic.

[00:15:43] But when, when every single message has the goal of not panicking people, they fail to communicate the real danger levels.

Sophia Frentz

[00:15:55] Yeah.

Serena Chen

[00:15:56] And sometimes people just need to be told straight up what is happening. Like things are bad, hospitals are overrun, stay home.

Sophia Frentz

[00:16:07] Cause like the people who will die during an uncontrolled pandemic are not just people who get coronavirus and, oh God, I’m sure everyone says this to death, but like it is the people who you get into a car accident and there’s no space in the ICU for you because it’s full of people with coronavirus.

[00:16:26] You need a respirator for a different reason, and there are no respirators because of like the uncontrolled spread of this coronavirus. That’s so much more than, it’s so much more than just the pandemic, it’s everything around it, and it’s the capacity of our hospital systems, which I know in a lot of places in Europe are really under strain and we’re pretty lucky in the antipodean countries to not have that strain right now, but it could so easily spiral out of control.

Serena Chen

[00:16:52] So, two, two things the, Oh, what was I going to say? Brain fog. Excuse me.

Sophia Frentz

[00:17:01] I think the other thing of course to say, while you think about what you’re going to say, is that stuff like brain fog, stuff like being unable to focus on things, stuff like feeling like you’ve done fucking nothing this year.

[00:17:13] If you’re just like, who am I? What have I done? I’ve just turned up to work sometimes. And I’ve been so anxious the whole time.

Serena Chen

[00:17:20] I’ve done like negative, nothing. Yeah.

Sophia Frentz

[00:17:23] Yeah. Like that’s all normal, right? Because I think what people really need to understand sort of within themselves is essentially, we’re living through a little apocalypse.

[00:17:33] There’s like a baby apocalypse happening around us. We’re just having to go to work?

Serena Chen

[00:17:37] Yeah.

Sophia Frentz

[00:17:38] And that’s wild, right? Like, don’t get me wrong. It was still wild last January in Australia, when the entire country was on fire.

Serena Chen

[00:17:47] Fuck, I keep forgetting that happened!

Sophia Frentz

[00:17:49] Also wild to have to go to work during that apocalypse! Now we got a different one!

Serena Chen

[00:17:54] It was bad. Like, it was really bad. Yeah.

Sophia Frentz

[00:17:57] Oh, I keep getting very angry when people forget it happened because the air was bad.

[00:18:03] We are so lucky to be in a La Niña year this year, so it’s a, it’s a very fucking cold, wet summer this year

Serena Chen

[00:18:11] Another one?

Sophia Frentz

[00:18:12] And it’s so good because can you imagine: a respiratory virus pandemic on top of the country on fire?

Serena Chen

[00:18:20] Yeah. Gosh. Okay. I think I’ve remembered what I was going to mention. Re: the lockdown, and the hospitals at capacity and how like no other treatments can happen because the entire hospital is overrun with COVID. I keep hearing about people complaining that surgeries have been cancelled because of lockdown.

[00:18:45] And not just elective surgeries, like cancer surgeries, important surgeries that were scheduled, that can’t happen anymore because of lockdown. And every time I see that, it’s like, it’s not because of lockdown. It’s because the hospitals are full of COVID.

Sophia Frentz

[00:19:01] Or they’re not allowed to have as much capacity because of,

Serena Chen

[00:19:03] because of COVID, exactly. And it bugs me because it makes it sound like we could have, if we didn’t, if we weren’t so quote unquote afraid of the virus, we, we could have these lifesaving surgeries risk-free but we just chose not to because we’re shaking in our boots.

[00:19:25] We’re scared. Ooh.

[00:19:27] But yeah, it’s, it’s frustrating. Cause it’s like these, these are not decisions. These.

Sophia Frentz

[00:19:34] Well, I mean they, they are decisions, but they’re sensible decisions, right.

Serena Chen

[00:19:38] Yeah they’re not light decisions, they’re hard decisions to make, but they have to be made because it’s like, you can usually, you know, when you have, say transplant surgeries, you have to suppress your immune system. During a pandemic, that seems like a bad idea.

[00:19:54] And you’re going to have the surgery at hospital around COVID. Hmm. It seems bad. Seems bad.

[00:19:59] The second interesting thing about the hospital capacities in lockdown, is that the hospital capacity here and especially in Germany is incredibly good, extremely good. Like I live in a city with a population of about Auckland, which is a small city. It’s actually smaller than Auckland, population wise.

[00:20:22] there are like, three big, big hospitals near me, and they’re all connected to like teaching universities. So they’re all teaching hospitals.

Sophia Frentz

[00:20:32] Oh nice!

Serena Chen

[00:20:33] Yeah, it’s really cool. and I was there in one of them for a week. I mean, I’m still here, so that’s good. Um, and yeah, just an incredibly impressive healthcare system, everything is so efficient, there are so many staffed beds, and it’s great.

[00:20:53] And I compare that to New Zealand. You know, this year I found that, that we have 153 staffed ICU beds. And I was like, Oh, okay, that seems low per a hundred thousand, but that’s fine. And then it was like, no, no, no, no, no, not per a hundred thousand population. For the whole country. The whole country.

Sophia Frentz

[00:21:13] A lot of that is because so much is controlled by the district health boards. They basically get to be the little dictators of their little regions.

[00:21:23] And that’s why it’s things like, if you hear me dunk on a hospital, I’ll be talking about the Otago Southland DHB!

Serena Chen

[00:21:29] Hey, I’m, I’m totally on board. I’m just stunned at how underfunded our healthcare, our entire health care system is in New Zealand and how much stress and strain all of the doctors and nurses are put under. Like their shifts! 12-hour shifts.

Sophia Frentz

[00:21:50] Yep. And that was only got through unionization.

Serena Chen

[00:21:53] It is baffling. It is absolutely baffling. Every time they have a strike, it’s like, oh my God, why don’t we just pay them? Like, goodness,

Sophia Frentz

[00:22:04] that’s a different episode

Serena Chen

[00:22:05] that’s a different episode, but yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s interesting because it was due to the fact that even if we had the tiniest outbreak in New Zealand, our entire health system would have fallen.

[00:22:18] And it was due to that fact that the government acted so strictly, and I’m glad they acted strictly because Holy shit, that would have been really bad, but it’s also kind of ironic that because. I, I’m assuming it was a, it was a factor in the decisions around the response in Germany and, and a bunch of countries here in Europe is that because the healthcare system is actually really good.

[00:22:45] People felt like they could just, you know, chill

Sophia Frentz

[00:22:51] go to a beer garden.

Serena Chen

[00:22:53] That’s fine.

Sophia Frentz

[00:22:54] It’s yeah, it’s something I found really interesting in Victoria. And I’m like, when I talk about Australia, I’m just going to be talking about state responses. There’s plenty of writing out there if you want to go and read it around how the federal government has done fucking nothing, and at some points has actively tried to undermine the state’s responses to COVID, so Scott Morrison, if I could punch you, I would, bud.

[00:23:17] Something I found really interesting was I had a pap smear due this year, and talking to my doctor about it, it was during Victoria’s lockdown. And I was like, look, should, should I delay this? Given that I will be, you know, I’d be coming into you, I’d be having it with you. If we had to have any follow-up, it would be at the Royal women’s where everyone is pregnant. and she was like, no, don’t delay it. Like, what if you have cancer Sophia? Like, we need to get onto it now. I’m like, thank you. As always, making me feel very calm about this procedure.

Serena Chen

[00:23:46] Just a normal check-up. That’s fine.

Sophia Frentz

[00:23:49] I found it surprising, that they were just like, no, no, no. Like we want you to keep getting these tests and all these follow-ups as normal. We don’t want you to come into the doctor and be like, oh no, I’ve got a sniffle. I need a certificate. Everything should be telehealth as much as possible, but generally we want people to keep getting their regular checks because otherwise, you know, on the other side of this, or whenever lockdown loosens, there’s going to be this huge backlog of like people that will need medical care, or stuff will get so severe, they will have to go to hospital.

[00:24:19] And then like, what was the point of trying to stay out of the system?

Serena Chen

[00:24:23] Yeah, exactly.

[00:24:24] I noticed during, Ooh, I want to say like, May, June, July, August, September, like those months where the curve had gotten a bit better. I saw all these ads on Instagram from the German government that was like, if you have a health emergency, please call the emergency number, please go to the hospital.

[00:24:47] cause they were getting reports that people were just avoiding going to any kind of healthcare services, even in emergency situations because of the virus. I guess that’s like the other thing that is also deadly is that people aren’t getting health care. Sometimes not because they can’t, but because they don’t want to, because who would want to go to a hospital at this time, right?

Sophia Frentz

[00:25:11] I mean, the flip side of this, right, is that like, Telehealth has been a critical piece of health care that’s been required for, I would say probably a decade in Australia, right, to access like really remote areas of Australia, or to access people who just like have, you know, significant disability that means they can’t physically access stuff.

[00:25:32] And everyone’s been a real butt about putting telehealth into action, except for like some hospitals. Turns out as with everything this pan, this is one of my real bug bears where I’m just like, this has been a good thing to come out of this pandemic, and I’m so angry it didn’t happen earlier.

[00:25:48] It’s just like, it turns out all of the access requirements that disabled people, remote people, people who can’t travel for whatever other reason, like were asking for, turns out they were really easy to provide and like most companies did them within like, two weeks.

[00:26:03] I, at the beginning of the pandemic, I quit my terrible previous job and started an excellent new job.

Serena Chen

[00:26:08] congratulations.

Sophia Frentz

[00:26:09] Thank you. and at my previous workplace, I’ve been sort of going like, Hey, like you’ve got this all-hands meeting coming up that’s mandatory to attend, the building you have it in is inaccessible for me, right? Like I cannot climb the stairs. The temperatures all fucked up. Like it just, it doesn’t work for me on multiple levels across multiple of my disabilities.

[00:26:27] I know you live stream it to other like centres, can I get it live streamed? And they were like, Oh no, I’m like, But you, you do live stream it, like you live stream it to our other offices. So could I just get like a stream, like one of those offices get, and they were like, ah, it’s just, it’s really complicated and it’s really hard.

[00:26:46] So I quit that job, got a new job. Much better, way cooler about disability and gender and everything that matters to me. And it’s a better work environment and all the work I do is better. So, I’ve lucked out.

[00:27:00] And I was talking to a friend back at work and they were like, Oh, so it turns out all that they really needed was a pandemic in order to be like, Oh, now we can just live stream this to everyone.

[00:27:08] And it’s like, Oh, oh so my disability wasn’t important enough. Like, despite that being kind of like, I’m pretty sure there’s the United nations declaration of human rights about how you should have been supporting me. But as soon as the government was like, don’t put all those people in a room together.

[00:27:23] You’re like, Oh, actually, it’s just very easy to do this. It’s very straightforward for us to make this change. Fuck off.

Serena Chen

[00:27:29] The COVID relief payments in New Zealand as well, comparing how easy and how like non-judgemental and all of the processes around getting that money compared to welfare and how fucking ridiculous and just such an ordeal that you have to go through. And the shame that you have to endure just to like get a benefit check to live and find a job like God,

Sophia Frentz

[00:28:02] So, two things. One funny, one depressing. When the Australian government announced they were doing a sort of COVID support thing, and that was accessible through Centrelink, which is our equivalent of WINZ or going on the benefit.

[00:28:16] The Centrelink website went down and the federal government was like, Oh, it was a DDOS attack. And it’s like, it’s not a DDOS attack if that many people are actually trying to use your services.

Serena Chen

[00:28:24] Yup. That’s just people using

Sophia Frentz

[00:28:26] like, that’s just, that’s just your website being bad. I don’t, it’s not an attack, buds like, trust me on this one.

[00:28:34] the other thing is of course it’s wonderfully depressing to now watch Australia and New Zealand take the benefit back down to the level that it was before COVID hit, despite, specifically in New Zealand’s case, the working group put together by the Labour government saying definitely raise the benefit, it’s way too low, like people are in poverty.

[00:28:52] Labour government going, I don’t know though, what should we do? It’s a mystery.

Serena Chen

[00:28:58] Oh, that’s gonna make us unpopular with the national voters. And truly the people we love the most are rich conservative voters

Sophia Frentz

[00:29:06] Fuck you, you got 60% of the vote, mandate for change.

Serena Chen

[00:29:11] I think the most frustrating things about a whole bunch of decisions that have been made during the pandemic and, you know, before as well,

Sophia Frentz

[00:29:20] And generally.

Serena Chen

[00:29:21] And generally, is that I know if I were to confront the people who made these decisions, they would have perfectly fine arguments backing up their decisions. And like, I could, I can see things from their point of view, but just, they are making decisions that aren’t just like theoretical game theory moves.

[00:29:46] These are decisions that affect people’s lives in a very real way. And it just feels like they don’t get it.

Sophia Frentz

[00:29:57] Yeah. And I mean like generally I’m, I’m a big UBI bitch, so I’m just like, yes, raise the benefit, 24 sev, make it easier to get, support people to get volunteer roles, don’t just emphasize paid work because like, if you’re like, Oh, work’s good for your brain, then like volunteer work is also good for your brain, get it together. Volunteers are critical to the functioning of our NGO section of the economy. So, support people in that too.

[00:30:19] But then your government put together a working group and their findings were that you should raise the benefit. And you’re like, Oh, I don’t know though. What’s the right decision. It’s so unclear.

Serena Chen

[00:30:34] Isn’t it so funny. How

Sophia Frentz

[00:30:37] Legalise marijuana, fuckers.

Serena Chen

[00:30:39] Oh my God, (laughter)

Sophia Frentz

[00:30:42] we can’t get into it.

Serena Chen

[00:30:45] Isn’t it so funny how people in positions of power will be like, let us consult the experts. Experts, tell us what you think. And the experts will tell them what they think. And they’re like, great. I don’t like that, so we’re not going to do that.

[00:31:01] So why did you fucking ask in the first place?

[00:31:06] Oh my gosh. Don’t even get me started about the marijuana referendum.

Sophia Frentz

[00:31:12] I’ve missed you.

Serena Chen

[00:31:14] I’ve missed you! It’s been a tough year.

Sophia Frentz

[00:31:19] Okay. What, what good thing has happened to your brain this year? What is the good change you’ve seen and how you think or interact or whatever?

[00:31:34] 30 seconds of silence, we can get crickets noises.

Serena Chen

[00:31:40] Well, okay. No, no. Let’s earnestly think about this. I have much lower expectations of myself.

Sophia Frentz

[00:31:52] That’s really good.

Serena Chen

[00:31:53] Yeah, I’m going to count as a, as a good thing.

[00:31:56] For, so I think this was the first year of intermediate. Year Seven? I remember there was some kind, kind of like, you know, cringe-worthy inspirational talk at school assembly. I can’t remember what it was about, but I remember there was this one phrase that really stuck with me and shit. I can’t even remember who said it. But someone who was talking, told this like big story, blah, blah, blah.

[00:32:25] But then in the middle somewhere, they said, Bite off more than you can chew and then chew it. And I don’t know why that stuck with me, but it did. And it became like, I mean, not consciously, I didn’t think, Oh yes. I, I think that’s a great little Oh, sounds, sounds good. Tight little phrase. I’ll, I’ll take that with me, like I didn’t consciously think any of this.

[00:32:51] but what happened was that I took that with me going forward in everything that I did. And so, I would over-commit myself, and then I would somehow get it all done. And I don’t know how. Mostly through a lot of, a lot of all-nighters, essentially. And a lot of stress and a lot of doing things at the last minute.

[00:33:20] but that’s how I carried myself throughout all of life after, which seems healthy, sure.

[00:33:26] I think it really started to become clear that it was not a sustainable approach. It was not a good, it was not a healthy approach to, you know, everything in life.

[00:33:39] Maybe I want to say like two, four years ago, I don’t know, it hasn’t been sustainable forever. So, let’s, let’s be honest about that. and I would tell myself this, I’d be like, Serena you need to say no to more things and you need to do less, or you need to like, just be more focused and selective of what you do.

[00:33:59] So like give the same amount of effort to a smaller group of things. And. I feel like it’s like an annual ritual. Like every year, I would have to like go through this kind of self-talk stage where I’m like, I can’t keep working like this. And then every year I would ignore myself and this year, like, I, I could not physically do more.

[00:34:29] And kind of being forced, to expect less and to not feel like this is some kind of visceral internal failure, I think is, eventually in the long run, going to be very good.

[00:34:49] cause back in the day, like even when I told myself, Hey, this is not sustainable, you can’t keep over-committing yourself.

[00:34:56] When I would pull back on commitments, I would feel, I would feel like shit.

[00:35:01] And now that this has become like a therapy session, thank you. But yeah, that’s, that’s one, that’s one positive thing that has happened this year is the, how the pandemic has, has forced everyone to do less. And I think it’s catalysed a lot of people asking ourselves like what the point of our productivity is, what

Sophia Frentz

[00:35:26] yeah.

Serena Chen

[00:35:27] What we get self-worth from, what we base our identities around, and whether that is a healthy, whether those are healthy things to base self-worth and identity around. Yeah. How about you?

Sophia Frentz

[00:35:45] Well, I haven’t worn a bra in 10 months, so that’s been fucking phenomenal.

Serena Chen

[00:35:49] Oh yeah, that’s good.

Sophia Frentz

[00:35:50] No, seriously. I think, I think the really big thing for me, this is going to be like moderately depressing, but it’s fine.

[00:35:57] I’ve started to embrace my femininity again, and like my feminine side and like I wear dresses more and I wear makeup more and I’ll look girly some more. Because after like the first sort of harsh lockdown we had in like March, April, May, June, July.

[00:36:16] It was just kind of like this realization that if I’m not being mis-gendered regularly, which I was, a lot, at my shitty previous job, and it’s just part of the nature of kind of being non-binary is that when you’re out in the world, it is more likely than not that like when you buy your coffee or when you go into a shop or when you do anything, you’ll be mis-gendered.

[00:36:36] and not having that pressure on my life made me feel so much better about myself and my gender. And I was just like, Oh, it could be this good!

[00:36:46]so that was a really positive thing to come out of this year. It was like, I just, I started feeling cause like I, you know, it’s not like I have a very neutral relationship to my gender. It just is what I am.

[00:36:59] And this was a year that I actually, like I feel good about this. Like, I don’t feel shitty and mis-gendered all the time. Like I feel good existing, just kind of in my skin.

Serena Chen

[00:37:08] Yeah.

Sophia Frentz

[00:37:09] I also just like stopped attending events because I

Serena Chen

[00:37:14] There’s still events?

Sophia Frentz

[00:37:16] It’s a little bit of that.

[00:37:18] It’s a little bit of like the reading the room thing. Like a bunch of events moved to zoom and I just, I don’t, I don’t want to go to a zoom event like. Part of the draw of in-person events for me is one there’s free food and wine.

[00:37:32] And two, you’ve just spent eight hours like looking at a screen, now you can like go and hang out with people and meet new people and have interesting conversations. And you know, certainly I missed that. I think it took me about six weeks of like proper isolation before I was like, Oh, I’d really like to see a friend.

[00:37:47] Cause I. I’m bouncing around a number of topics here.

[00:37:52] I had a meeting with my psych over the phone about a month in, and I was like, I don’t feel that lonely, but I did start crying in a meeting the other day. And we kinda talked about it and she was like, I’ll be really interested to like hear when you do start to feel lonely.

[00:38:05] And it was about after about six weeks, I was like, Oh, I’d really like to see a friend for coffee. Like, that’d be really cool. I really miss that.

[00:38:13] But it’s just kind of like, I think understanding myself a lot more, like I knew I was introverted, but I’m like proper introverted ay.

[00:38:20] Like I don’t want to do a lot of this. Like there are things I get from it, but I definitely expended a lot of energy on it as well.

[00:38:29] And this year, I mean, that energy went to doom scrolling mostly, like just kind of transferred straight over. But it’s kind of like, yeah, like feeling better about myself and like knowing a little bit more about myself than I did before.

[00:38:45] I think those were the two good things to come out of. It.

Serena Chen

[00:38:48] It has been quite interesting just by nature of having to spend so much time with myself, how little introspection I have done? (laughter)

Sophia Frentz

[00:39:04] I’m sorry, I shouldn’t be laughing, but this is very funny. Please continue.

Serena Chen

[00:39:08] Yeah. This is another good thing, I guess, to come out of the pandemic, cause, okay. Spending so much time alone. Like I don’t mind being alone, but I, I feel like I haven’t well, no, I feel like I know I haven’t seen a friend outside of my household for, since, for, a while.

[00:39:33] And, you know, it gets to a point where it gets to you, but spending so much time, just kind of, with yourself, it’s made me at least realize how much I have what’s the word? Relied on other people, or, how much I look to other people for things that I really should be looking within myself for.

[00:39:55] So that’s things like identity, like the idea of who I am as a person, that’s things like validation and self-worth. I realized how much I was counting on other people to validate my own self-worth, which was never something like, I didn’t think I was like that, you know?

[00:40:14] but then, after spending so much time by myself, it’s like, Oh, like, why do I feel worthless and shitty? And then realizing that like, Oh, I have been looking at other people for that. And that’s, I mean, that’s fine, to an extent, but I really should be getting like the majority of that validation from myself and the things that I do. And that has been a revelation, not a comfortable revelation at all. And frankly, a little bit embarrassing to say out loud, but a revelation nonetheless.

Sophia Frentz

[00:40:51] Yeah. I definitely. I don’t meditate as much as I should.

Serena Chen

[00:40:56] Neither

Sophia Frentz

[00:40:57] I meditated today and just started crying uncontrollably and I was like, Oh, so that’s where my brain’s at, good to know, just gonna stop doing this now. I’m good.

[00:41:08] But I think like, yeah, I felt very, lucky is maybe not exactly the right word, going into lockdown just simply because like the combination of sort of having had regular therapy for kind of two years at the point that we went into lock down, as well as like just being an autistic introvert, they’re very much strengths going into lockdown.

[00:41:33] Because coming out of it now, no one remembers how to talk to anyone. People are garbage, at holding conversations. So, I’m just like, Oh, Hey, me too, good luck mates.

Serena Chen

[00:41:46] Welcome to my world

Sophia Frentz

[00:41:48] Let me, let me pass you my Rolodex of appropriate topics of conversation, have a flick through, see if you find one that you like. I certainly was not hit by it as hard as a lot of people were, and I feel very, very lucky from that.

[00:42:02] I also made the fucking abhorrent decision to come off Valium this year, but my doctor maintains it was the correct decision. So, we’ll just go with what she says. And like, I basically like graduated from my psych this year as well. Like in sort of August, she was like, we don’t need to keep seeing each other regularly. Like, you’re kind of fine.

[00:42:24] It’s the classic 2020 paradox, where actually personally it’s been kind of a baller year for me. Right. But politically the world is bad.

Serena Chen

[00:42:34] Yeah, yeah. I felt the same way in 2016, like personally, that was a really good year for me, but then like everything out in the world was like, on fire. Yeah.

Sophia Frentz

[00:42:49] Yeah. I think everyone has learned something about themselves this year.

[00:42:55] And I think that learning, like I know a lot of garbage has happened and I don’t want to like downplay anyone’s grief around this year, because even if you haven’t lost someone, I think it is very valid to like essentially grieve for the year that we missed out on, the year that nothing could fucking happen.

[00:43:13] Like you moved, you moved to Germany, Serena.

Serena Chen

[00:43:17] I moved to Europe to travel,

[00:43:22] Last year, oh, last, last year, I guess, 2019. December-ish. I like. This is so cheesy. I went through like this little, reflection and like year ahead little worksheet, very cutesy. And it was all about like reflecting on the year that you had, and then thinking about the year ahead and like your plans for it, your, your hopes and dreams, and you know, all of that.

[00:43:52] And I went through that little exercise again last week, you know, to reflect on the year that was, and to think about the year ahead. I did not finish that exercise. I got one page into that exercise, but before that I, I read last year’s one and it is like, Watching a child talk about Santa. It’s like, Oh honey,

[00:44:21] it was all about like, Oh, I’m so excited about like all the adventures I’m gonna have and I’m gonna, you know, see the world and meet new people and like learn more about, you know, how big the world is and all these, like, Different histories and cultures and architecture, and, Oh my goodness. And like all of the goals and like aspirations and stuff were around like traveling and just reading that and being like, that’s kind of hilarious.

[00:44:53] I mean, mostly sad, but kind of hilarious, let’s be honest.

[00:44:57] Yeah, so I’m like goals this year is, you know what let’s, let’s just focus on doing okay.

Sophia Frentz

[00:45:05] And I think that’s, that’s fair, right? I mean this year has been the year to focus on just like surviving rather than thriving, and next year, at least until you get vaccinated, like focus on surviving rather than thriving, and then get vaccinated and live your best life.

[00:45:20] It’s been strange the number of times I’ve had to say that to people, because they’re feeling bad about not like, sort of kicking all of their goals during a literal pandemic and it’s just like, no, no buds. Like you’ve got food, you’ve got water, you got shelter, you got Netflix. You’re good. Like, you’re all good. Just take it, just run with it. You’re fine. You don’t have to be productive or perfect or, you know,

[00:45:47] like, like I feel like I’ve been very lucky in that, like, I’ve had a workplace during this that’s just been like, oh yeah, no, your brains are broken from this. It’s fine. Just do what you can.

Serena Chen

[00:46:00] I’d like our listeners all to know that I have gained zero new skills during lockdown. I have done no new projects and that is perfectly fine. And that is good, even in fact.

Sophia Frentz

[00:46:14] I got halfway through a number of projects, and that is also perfectly fine and very valid.

[00:46:21] That’s perfectly fine.

Serena Chen

[00:46:23] So, when we wanted to chat again on this podcast, we were talking about, the original plan was that I was going to ask you about the MRN- mRNA vaccine, which I am still very excited to hear you talk about more. I did a little bit of reading. It is very cool. So, next time.

Sophia Frentz

[00:46:48] Next time, on Things of Interest yes. We’ll, we’ll talk science again. I just needed a bit of a way to ease myself back into things.

Serena Chen

[00:46:56] Well, this has been really lovely.

Sophia Frentz

[00:46:57] That’s been another episode of Things of Interest. We have talked about pandemic brains. We’ve talked about how the benefit should be raised literally everywhere. We’ve talked about

Serena Chen

[00:47:06] please,

Sophia Frentz

[00:47:06] how to think better about healthcare systems and accessibility.

[00:47:10] And we’ve just generally kind of yelled about the pandemic. I’m sorry if that’s your entire life right now, but it’s ours too! Soz, that’s what the podcast is. As always, if you, if you like us, if you’re glad we’re back, leave us some reviews wherever you’ve accessed this podcast, we’re on Facebook at Things of Interest. We’re on Twitter @CastingInterest. We have an email it’s castinginterest@gmail.com?

Serena Chen

[00:47:36] Yeah.

Sophia Frentz

[00:47:36] And our website is thingsofinterest.co so that’s all the places you can find us.

[00:47:41] I’ve been Sophia Frentz

Serena Chen

[00:47:43] and I’m Serena Chen

Sophia Frentz

[00:47:44] and as always, stay interesting.